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EJ22 disaster!


falco

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Hi all,

Here's a tricky one. Just hoping for some brainstorming type ideas. I have a 1990 Legacy GX (NZ new, if that matters). The clutch was slipping and the cam belt was due for replacement, and the engine bay was pretty mucky, so I decided to pull the engine out, do the clutch and belt, and clean (pressure wash) the engine bay. None of that was a big problem, I've done a lot of clutches and cam belts with no problems, though it has been a long time since I last did that. On reassembling and re-fitting the engine, it won't start. I've checked everything I can think of, multiple times, and I've run out of ideas.

Behaviour - engine turns over OK, and occasionally pops, fires, kicks back etc. Never really gets close to running.

Things I've checked:

- Cam belt seems OK. This is the SOHC engine, not too hard to verify. The crank and cam position indicators seem OK, and the new cam belt's marks also look OK, so I don't think I got it wrong initially or that it's slipped. The belt was marked EJ18 when it arrived, but I expect that's fine (I know the EJ20 and EJ22 SOHC belts are the same).

- It has spark (checked with the plugs out of the engine)

- It has fuel (externally at least - has flow out of the return, though I can't easily check the regulated pressure)

- If I give it a bit of engine start while it's turning over, it makes no difference, suggesting either that there's something pretty fatal wrong with it, or it's too rich/flooded.

- If I put my hand over the throttle body intake while cranking it, there's very little (almost no) vacuum. I wouldn't have thought that was normal, but I've never tried that before on one of these.

- Compression sounds fairly even.

So - any ideas? I posted on alt.autos.subaru before realising that it's pretty dead there these days. Should have tried here first anyway.

Also - anyone have any ideas where the diagnostic connectors on this thing are? I thought the ECU might have some ideas for me, but I'm damned if I can find that little black single-pin connector...

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 evowrx said:
Coil pack or over plug? Sounds like firing order all wrong. Or injector plugs back to front.

Neither injector connectors nor plug leads were removed. It's pretty hard to get them wrong anyway, given the way they're routed.

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 evowrx']You wouldnt believe how common it is. Well done pulling the engine out without unplugging injectors.

Do people really do that? It sounds like an incredibly difficult way to go about it!

[quote name='evowrx said:

Run a comp test on all 4 pots.

Yep, would have done that, but my comp tester doesn't fit. I'll have to get a new one.

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 madmike said:
Other thing to check is that all your earth are correct and tight.

It does turn over at a reasonable speed, so I think the earth is probably OK. Thinks... I did forget the main earth strap when I first fitted everything, and when I tried to turn it over, it did the no earth thing. It was pretty obvious, so I just connected the earth, but I wonder if I fried something on that first start attempt with no decent earth?

Edit... thinking about it, I have injector drive, I have spark, I have fuel pressure. I can't think of anything I could have fried that would stop the engine from firing, but not take out one or more of those.

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Check Cam and crank sensors..

Also check for water in electricals.. seeing as you pressure washed it.

basically you need to start at one end and go through step by step on every system the car uses. trying each time to start the car.

And..... If your engine has gotten into a "Flooded state" you will have real trouble getting it to start even if everything is correct. Subaru hate having wet plugs!!

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Im lost.

You say you didnt unplug injectors but you removed engine.

It sounds like the firing or injection order is out.

People swapping cam and injector plugs accidentally also happens. Doubt thats the case as you have spark and fuel etc.

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If it has the black and green diagnostic plugs, they'll be straight above the clutch pedal:

classic_test_mode_connector.gif

If it has spark and fuel (Test for injector pulse with a screwdriver against the injectors, listening for ticking. Or check if the plugs are wet after a good cranking, fuel vapour will also come out of the open sparkplug port while cranking.) and was running fine before the cam belt job?

Check the timing marks again. Make sure the right crank timing mark was used:

100_0527copy.jpg

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 Rosssub said:
If it has the black and green diagnostic plugs

I'll reply in more detail tonight, but I had to ask about this one right now... 'IF it has the black and green diagnostic plugs'? Do some cars not have these? If not, it must be damn difficult to use the test modes!

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 madmike']Check Cam and crank sensors..

True - I need to remind myself how to meter these. However, I do get spark. Does this ECU still try to run if one of those are missing? If either is bad, I would have thought that would prevent it from timing ignition properly at all, so it wouldn't try.

Also check for water in electricals.. seeing as you pressure washed it.

Yes, this is the kind of thing I'm worrying about. I tried not to blast anything that seemed fragile, and the fact that I have spark and injector drive suggests that the electrics are fairly sane, but who knows.

basically you need to start at one end and go through step by step on every system the car uses. trying each time to start the car.

That's the thing, I've gone through everything I can think of, and come out the end of my troubleshooting process still without a running engine. For me, unheard of! I've never had a problem like this, all the way through EA and EJ series engines.

And..... If your engine has gotten into a "Flooded state" you will have real trouble getting it to start even if everything is correct. Subaru hate having wet plugs!!

I've never had a problem with an EJ flooding. I did leave the engine with plugs out for about 24 hours, wondering if this was the case, and was disappointed to get exactly the same behaviour afterwards. I would think that should do the trick?

Spark + Fuel + Air, it should be going, or at least giving you more life, Water in a terminal from the pressure clean of engine bay?

Yes, maybe. Not too sure where to look though! There's not much that would stop the engine running in this way, that I know of. Not even a dead/confused AFM.

Im lost. You say you didnt unplug injectors but you removed engine.

On this engine (early EJ22), there are two main banks of connectors for the engine loom - one set on the back of the engine, and one that hangs over the left side (near the battery). The back ones are the sensors (crank, cam, knock), and the side ones are all the injector and coil drives etc. In this case, we were talking about getting injector plugs mixed up; that wasn't possible as the injector plugs were never removed, only the main loom connectors.

It sounds like the firing or injection order is out.

I guess... I think the engine should still run with the wrong injector order, but getting the coil packs mixed up would make for interesting behaviour like this.

If it has the black and green diagnostic plugs, they'll be straight above the clutch pedal:

Thanks - I did look there, and the plugs do look as I remembered them, but now at least I have a more accurate idea. I'll recheck.

If it has spark and fuel (Test for injector pulse with a screwdriver against the injectors, listening for ticking.

I'll try listening. I've verified that the power supp.y to the injectors is OK, and I've used my patented old method for testing drive - a pinball playfield bulb connected to the injector drive. At crank, you can easily see the pulses. I've always found it impossible to hear injectors while cranking, though while running, it's easy.

Or check if the plugs are wet after a good cranking, fuel vapour will also come out of the open sparkplug port while cranking.)

Good point. I'll try that. I never noticed any moisture on the plugs at all. A warning sign, I should have thought of that. Maybe the fuel pressure regulator has failed.

and was running fine before the cam belt job?

Yep, perfect. Not even any lifter noise. It was a really nice sngine, so I'm keen to get it going again.

[quote name='Rosssub said:

Check the timing marks again. Make sure the right crank timing mark was used:

I'm not sure this car has two marks, but maybe that's part of my problem! Will check.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions! I've transferred my attention to my Brumby for now, but over the next few days I'll have another look at the Legacy.

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 RAYDEO said:
Check the fuel pump just for ****s and giggles. Make sure the engine is getting a good amount of fuel.

bot in common for the pumps to just kark it with no warning...

I am getting flow out of the pump, but I didn't check for pressure. Do these ever fail such that they won't build enough pressure for the regulator to work?

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 falco said:
I am getting flow out of the pump, but I didn't check for pressure. Do these ever fail such that they won't build enough pressure for the regulator to work?

Not really, when they die they die. But on that note, also make sure the fuel lines going to the manifold are the right way around too.

Inlet, from the pump/filter to the top pipe. Fuel tank return to the middle and vent on the bottom:

100_4089.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

So, an update on a few things. There is fuel; the plugs do get wet after a bit of cranking, and I get clouds of fuel vapour on cranking with a plug removed. Compression seems reasonable for the age of the engine. One is 190, two about 180, one 170. The compression gauge is a bit dodgy as it's sealed by an O ring, and I can only do it up as tight as I can twist the rubber hose on it, so that could account for some of the variation too. Certainly, on cranking, it sounds completely even. I still can't find any diagnostic connectors. I did find something that looked like it might have been an early version, but connecting it didn't result in any flash codes.

diagnosticconnector.JPG

Also - the cam timing looks OK. Attached are pics of the cams and the crank. By coincidence, the marks on the belt are in the right place too.

cam-r.JPG

crank.JPG

cam-l.JPG

It looks like there's only one mark on the crank gear.

So... any ideas?

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I see what you mean - some of those Google images were pretty clear. I reckon that's the problem, won't know until I check it out tomorrow evening. Fingers crossed... bit of a bastard thing to do though, putting that huge obvious arrow on the front of the belt drive, and hiding the correct mark on the trigger plate behind it.

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  • 2 months later...

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