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Strange V7 Overheating problem


Jimdotcom

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Hi everyone

I've had a look through the search utility, but haven't found any similar examples - apologies if this has already been answered.

Hoping someone can answer a huge mystery for me.

We have a 2000 V7, and whenever we climb hills for long enough, the temp gauge starts to rise. Doesn't happen any other time, and is OK on idle + any other time.

The only thing that seems to cool it down when the needle does start climbing is putting my foot down, bringing on boost and then the needle drops to slightly below normal operating temp.

This started happening up the Ngauranga Gorge, and eventually started happening on the flat. As soon as it started overheating on the flat, I replaced the radiator cap with a temporary item for a day or two, then a Tridon CB16110L. Since then, it's only up hills again.

Background:

  • Had cambelt replaced recently, but the car was overheating before this was done.
  • When cambelt was done,car had new thermostat, water pump, coolant etc. Was also re-timed, had all of the idlers etc., done.
  • Cambelt was done properly, by SpeedTech in Wellington, no cowboy DIY job.
  • Car isn't running like a sack of s***
  • No oil in water or water in oil
  • Black connectors under steering column don't report a fault
  • Can smell coolant when I exit the car (I live up a big hill, so it's getting warm, but not full on overheating most days), but see no leaks and vehicle doesn't appear to be losing coolant
  • Radiator and hoses are only a few months old
  • All fuses are fine
  • Electric Fans are clicking on
  • Heater is working fine; heat in the cab etc.
  • Car does seem to be using fuel faster than usual (average 440-460km before fuel light; came on at 370km today)

It's got me stumped, and I'm having problems finding anyone who's had a similar issue online - if anyone has any thoughts, I'd be really grateful.

Cheers!

Jimmy

Edited by Jimdotcom
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Might be worth getting a head gasket check done even though there is no oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil. Sometimes it can leak into a cylinder a little bit and it might not be very noticeable because it will be slowly consuming the coolant from the overflow bottle. I believe also that the heater core can be partially blocked and these cars seem to need it to flow at 100% to run well under load. You could always create a bypass for a few days and see if that helped resolve the issue.

For sure its not going to be an easy one to solve from the sounds of things so best of luck with it.

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It sounds to me like you aren't getting enough flow through the radiator. To test this next time you go up the gorge put the heater on full bore, non-recirc and see if that manages to hold them temp down. When you do this the heater core acts like a 2nd mini radiator helping to keep things cool.

Seeing as it started happening just after you got the cambelt done, I would be taking it back to speedtech and getting them to check and replace the thermostat (just because its new doesn't mean its not faulty, have had several faulty units out the box), the waterpump (could be faulty or incorrectly installed) and that the fans are working on both low and high speed when they should. Also if nothing comes apparent there get the radiator checked as well. Make sure its not blocked up.

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 tebbyj said:
It sounds to me like you aren't getting enough flow through the radiator. To test this next time you go up the gorge put the heater on full bore, non-recirc and see if that manages to hold them temp down. When you do this the heater core acts like a 2nd mini radiator helping to keep things cool.

Seeing as it started happening just after you got the cambelt done, I would be taking it back to speedtech and getting them to check and replace the thermostat (just because its new doesn't mean its not faulty, have had several faulty units out the box), the waterpump (could be faulty or incorrectly installed) and that the fans are working on both low and high speed when they should. Also if nothing comes apparent there get the radiator checked as well. Make sure its not blocked up.

Thanks for the suggestion - will give this a go.

RE: overheating - sorry; to avoid confusion, this was overheating before cam belt was done. Problem did escalate after it was done, but settled down after radiator cap was replaced and back to only happening on sustained hill climbs. Have edited OP to clear this up.

Edited by Jimdotcom
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 pixelplay said:
Might be worth getting a head gasket check done even though there is no oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil. Sometimes it can leak into a cylinder a little bit and it might not be very noticeable because it will be slowly consuming the coolant from the overflow bottle. I believe also that the heater core can be partially blocked and these cars seem to need it to flow at 100% to run well under load. You could always create a bypass for a few days and see if that helped resolve the issue.

For sure its not going to be an easy one to solve from the sounds of things so best of luck with it.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I read this article which suggested that buying a couple of plastic tee's could allow you to create a bypass of sorts that still allowed some heater flow. Any thoughts on this??

Edited by Jimdotcom
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 Jimdotcom said:
Thanks for the suggestion.

I read this article which suggested that buying a couple of plastic tee's could allow you to create a bypass of sorts that still allowed some heater flow. Any thoughts on this??

I have bought the Ts for mine as I have a heater core issue and are going to give it a try. I will let you know how I get on and post some info on how it goes for me. It sounds ok in practice but maybe it also could disrupt the flow in the pipes because of turbulence. I think it might be better to just make a loop of pipe with no kinks and bypass it temporary to see it that works.

The other issue could be the thermostat as spoken about above as some of the aftermarket ones don't open enough for our cars and the only cure for that issue is an OEM Subaru thermostat.

Its never easy to get to the bottom of it when the issue is so intermittent so you really have to try and eliminate each item one at a time from a good known source of parts until you get to the bottom of the issue.

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 pixelplay said:
I have bought the Ts for mine as I have a heater core issue and are going to give it a try. I will let you know how I get on and post some info on how it goes for me. It sounds ok in practice but maybe it also could disrupt the flow in the pipes because of turbulence. I think it might be better to just make a loop of pipe with no kinks and bypass it temporary to see it that works.

The other issue could be the thermostat as spoken about above as some of the aftermarket ones don't open enough for our cars and the only cure for that issue is an OEM Subaru thermostat.

Its never easy to get to the bottom of it when the issue is so intermittent so you really have to try and eliminate each item one at a time from a good known source of parts until you get to the bottom of the issue.

Cool mate; would be very interested to hear how you get on.

Thermostat is a Genuine Subaru part (as were the cam seals, crank seals, tensioner, idlers, water pump etc fitted when the timing belt was replaced).

Next logical step seems like it would be testing the head gasket, but I don't have the space or tools to remove much and get at the spark plugs. I'm also aware that a compression test may not necessarily show up anything for a minor leak that's only present under load.

My experience with HG fault diagnosis is limited, but the general consensus seems to be that a TK test will give me the best indication of whether the HG has failed. Is this the kind of thing I can/should do myself, or is this better handled by a mechanic? If the answer is the latter, (have never done one so this may seem a silly question) should the testing valve be placed into the header tank, or somewhere else?

Are there any other tests that I should perform (e.g., a leak-down, smoke test)?

As a side note; was talking to a friend of mine last night who I haven't seen in ages. He's a mechanic + auto electrician. Own's a Gravel Express, used to have a GC8 and has worked extensively on both. He's always up for cash jobs. He said that symptoms seemed likely that it may be a minor Head Gasket breach.

I can't speak for what his pricing would be for people he doesn't know, but he said $750 would cover it if I went to him. I've seen posts from people who've paid as much as $2500 for this kind of work, so this seems like a massive bargain.

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I would be leaning towards either a fairly blocked radiator or a very small headgasket fail.

$750 is basically pull the heads off, chuck new gaskets on, throw the heads back on. Probably not cracktesting the heads or anything like that.

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 boon said:
I would be leaning towards either a fairly blocked radiator or a very small headgasket fail.

$750 is basically pull the heads off, chuck new gaskets on, throw the heads back on. Probably not cracktesting the heads or anything like that.

Agree with this, if your going to all the trouble better to pay a little extra and get the heads tested and skimmed at the same time. Otherwise it might just blow again.

Its not very expensive just run then down to your local engine re-conditioners when there off.

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I have added the T-junctions to mine now, but have another issue to sort out before i can fully test it. The one thing to be careful of is that the top mounted intercooler runs very close to the heater hoses and if you don't take that into account when adding the t-junctions then the intercooler wont fit properly anymore. I had a few drams and needed to adjust mine a few tines to get it all to fit.

I think $700 is a fair price as its a reasonable sized job and to do the heads it really requires removing the engine. But as other have already said I would never do a head gasket with out first getting the heads tested for flatness. The subaru is know for having head gasket issues mainly due to the way the head gaskets used to be produced. There is loads of info online regarding it and yes you can get a small leak and it will cause all sorts of annoying issues including overheating.

The cheap fix is to use chemiweld as it will solve small headgasket issues but you need to make sure you read the instructions and make sure the cars fully up to heat before adding it. Many people will say nope don't do that as it can maybe cause other issues but a few people here have done it and had success. You would have to have a read about it and make that call yourself really.

A head-gasket test usually involves doing a few things. There is a tool that fits to your filler cap and is pumped up to a preset PSI rating and it will show if you actually have a leak in your system. The second method if a leak is found is a chemical test that will show if combustion byproducts are in your coolant system and if they are then it means your head-gaskets are on their way out.

The only tests that requires the plugs so come out are types of compression tests and that's really only good if the cars getting on and you suspect the rings on the pistons are tired and worn or it will help verify what cylinders are leaking back into the coolant.

The good news is that these engines look to be fairly easy to remove and once out of the car working on the engine becomes quite simple. I think next time I work on mine in any major way i will just take the engine out as all the troubles i have had so far mostly stem from trying to work on the engine in the car.

I do have an engine crane if you need to remove your engine and i am also based in wellington if that of any use to you.

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 Jimdotcom said:
Thanks guys - appreciate the advice. I'm committed to taking her from Wellington to Whakatane on Wednesday, so this is going to be interesting...

Ambitious... if it's currently a minor head gasket issues it's gonna be a proper one soon :S

$700 to do headgaskets is a very cheap cashie price and could only be just the headgaskets. It's possible to do them in the car but a massive pain in the arse, much more likely would be engine out, heads off, new gaskets on, ins engine back in.

Allowing $200 for consumables that's only $500 for labour, considering I think the going rate for a headgasket job is 1 day's labour, 8 hours at $80 (cheap) an hour = $640 so there's basically no way in hell you're getting a crack test, flatness check/skim or anything like that.

$1000 is more in the ballpark to get it done properly, unless you're doing it yourself.

I'd never put chemiweld or any of those other gasket-in-a-bottle products in a vehicle that I didn't plan on immediately selling to someone I particularly disliked. As soon as you put that **** in the motor you may as well throw away anything that the coolant passes through, regardless of what it says on the bottle.

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If you only have over heating issues when going up hill, its a very minimal chance that the head gaskets are at fault, If you had a head gasket problem it would be over heating all the time.

It sounds like a pressure or flow problem (being thermostat/rad cap or radiator).

If you have had the thermostat and radiator cap replaced ensure they are genuine items as the aftermarket rubbish does not work on Subarus.

I would be pulling out the radiator and sent to a radiator shop to have the tanks removed and professionally cleaned to ensure all the cores are clean.

Refrain from putting silly t-peice's into the heater core hoses as this not only hides the problem but creates another being: heater does not work properly and you are taking away another radiator for cooling.

If the cooling system has not been bled properly you will also have problems with air pockets.

If you can get headgaskets done PROPERLY for less than $1500, you are not getting a proper job and use of cheap/rubbish parts.

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 PRO SUB said:
If you have had the thermostat and radiator cap replaced ensure they are genuine items as the aftermarket rubbish does not work on Subarus.

What a crock bull**** blanket internet statement that is. Spent 7 years selling tridon and some stant never had an issue then used a genuine sub thermostat once and it failed.

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Thinking about it I'm more and more inclined to say radiator or thermostat issue as well, if only because EJ207's aren't really known for randomly popping headgaskets.

By the time you pay to get the radiator professionally cleaned you may as well chuck it out and put an alloy one on.

Or I have a perfectly good V7 STI stock radiator you could buy, now that I think about it.

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One things for sure its no use guessing whats wrong you need to systematically test things and swap parts for good known working ones until you get to the bottom of the issue. Guessing just costs lots of money in parts you didn't need. Going though the items one at a time will soon get to the bottom of the issue and first port of call should be getting it tested properly to see whether or not it is actually the head gasket.

There are only so many coolant pipes and area that can cause issues so you need to systematically eliminate then and then test it until you find the issue. The only real issue I can see is that some of the issues can be a bit of a pain to remedy but there are lots off good helpful people here and finding help wont be hard if you unsure how to do it.

From my perspective i would always rather read and then have a go than just simply take my car to a garage and let them do it. You will learn far more and understand what makes your car tick. First time round it always a steep learning curve but after that each time it gets more simple to work on.

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 evowrx said:
What a crock bull**** blanket internet statement that is. Spent 7 years selling tridon and some stant never had an issue then used a genuine sub thermostat once and it failed.

Unfortunately I have had many experiences with numerous subarus that have been brought to me with inconsistent or over heating issues that other workshops have been unable to fix and the other shops had fitted aftermarket thermostats and rad caps.

99% of these problem cars were remedied with fitting of Genuine items, so I think that speaks for itself.

I am not commenting on judgement, I am commenting on my own numerous experiences.

Genuine parts also come with a one year warranty :) and are also normally cheaper than buying an aftermarket part from Repco etc.

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 PRO SUB said:
Unfortunately I have had many experiences with numerous subarus that have been brought to me with inconsistent or over heating issues that other workshops have been unable to fix and the other shops had fitted aftermarket thermostats and rad caps.

99% of these problem cars were remedied with fitting of Genuine items, so I think that speaks for itself.

I am not commenting on judgement, I am commenting on my own numerous experiences.

Genuine parts also come with a one year warranty :) and are also normally cheaper than buying an aftermarket part from Repco etc.

I want to live in the world you live in. Doesn't quite make sense what youre saying about people having issues then aftermarket parts have been fitted but then you fitting genuine parts fixed the issue? So what garage A repaired a head gasket/cooling issue and put on a some aftermarket cap (which is obviously **** because its not genuine) the customer brought it to you for some issue the same or otherwise? which was fixed with a genuine cap/thermostat. Seems really strange they wouldn't take it back to the place they had the work done and jam it up their jaxy especially since for the last 5 years or so everyones penny pinching like crazy.

Im not buying what youre selling fella and if youre buying a product with less than a 12 month warranty you need your head read anyway I dont even know where you would buy product like that in NZ. GL with genuine being cheaper than aftermarket again you obviously arent buying from the right places or people.

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Aftermarket vs genuine is the age old question. I have seen the good/bad side of both.

With Genuine parts you know the quality will be there but your going to most likely pay a premium for it, although its not as bad as it used to be.

With aftermarket it really depends on brand theres a lot of cheap copies out there to be wary of but for the likes of Tridon, Gates, GMC etc. these are all good known brands that often supply oem parts anyway.

So its not a case of OEM vs Aftermarket its more a case of making sure good quality parts being used.

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  • 1 month later...

Manage to get to the bottom of this? My v7 Sti got a little warm on Friday while I was going away for the weekend. Was while I was going up a hill slowly behind a truck, defi water temp gauge went up to 100 degrees. Factory cluster water temp gauge didn't move from halfway. Radiator is a redline Ali one just over a year old and had cambelt water pump and thermostat done at winger few thousand km ago. It put a little bit of water in the reservior and was still fill in the filler tank. Going to get a new factory sti radiator cap and see if that will help.

What is the normal operating temperature?

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 greg0r said:
Manage to get to the bottom of this? My v7 Sti got a little warm on Friday while I was going away for the weekend. Was while I was going up a hill slowly behind a truck, defi water temp gauge went up to 100 degrees. Factory cluster water temp gauge didn't move from halfway. Radiator is a redline Ali one just over a year old and had cambelt water pump and thermostat done at winger few thousand km ago. It put a little bit of water in the reservior and was still fill in the filler tank. Going to get a new factory sti radiator cap and see if that will help.

What is the normal operating temperature?

I believe around 95~100 is normal operating temp. The fans will then kick in to keep temperatures in check.

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